1 [07:00] <dholbach> hello everybody!
   2 [07:00] <dholbach> who do we have here for the Q&A session?
   3 [07:00] <dholbach> maybe let's start with a quick round of introductions
   4 === ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Packaging Training Session - Current Session: Packaging and MOTU Q&A - Instructor: dholbach || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
   5 [07:01]  * dholbach is Daniel Holbach, living in Berlin, interested in making Ubuntu Development more exciting :)
   6 [07:01] <dholbach> who else do we have here?
   7 [07:01] <gotunandan> i am here
   8 [07:01] <dholbach> sorry
   9 [07:01] <dholbach> just turned the moderation off
  10 [07:02] <dholbach> so please speak up, when you're here and let's do some introductions :)
  11 [07:02] <gotunandan> nobody else ?
  12 [07:02] <gotunandan> i saw your dent on identi.ca and popped up here !
  13 [07:02] <dholbach> nice gotunandan :)
  14 [07:03] <dholbach> I'm sure we have a few shy lurkers among the 154 people in here :)
  15 [07:03] <jk-> ok, Jeremy Kerr here, living in Perth, Australia
  16 [07:03] <gotunandan> still need to use #ubuntu-classroom-chat for the questions ?
  17 [07:03] <jk-> :)
  18 [07:03] <dholbach> hey jk-
  19 [07:03] <jk-> heya dholbach
  20 [07:03] <dholbach> no no, we'll just chat in here
  21 [07:04] <dholbach> are you excited about maverick? :)
  22 [07:04] <jk-> i am in a constant state of excitement
  23 [07:04] <gotunandan> yeap... and more keen on joining in the "fun" in some way
  24 [07:05] <dholbach> awesome - I set up a vm for maverick already :)
  25 [07:05] <dholbach> did you guys bring any questions or is there anything you were wondering about packaging, ubuntu development, motu, tools, processes, etc?
  26 [07:06] <jk-> kinda - I see that a package has been dropped (due to FTBFS), and would like to adopt it
  27 [07:06] <jk-> so maybe that's more of a 'process' type issue
  28 [07:06] <gotunandan> <QUESTION> What would I need to start with to help with packaging ? I have already done some basic packaging and I have a ppa on launchpad as gotunandan. But not sure whom to approach to get actively involved in helping the MOTU
  29 [07:06] <maco> dholbach: better a vm than your actual system O_O toolchain freeze scary
  30 [07:07] <dholbach> ok, let's go through these one by one
  31 [07:07] <dholbach> jk-: cool - which package is it?
  32 [07:07] <jk-> python-creoleparser
  33 [07:07] <dholbach> maco: definitely - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases is your friend :)
  34 [07:08] <dholbach> jk-: I found it here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/creoleparser/0.6.1-1
  35 [07:09] <dholbach> and it seems to have built on i386: packages that are architecture-independent, such as a bunch of python scripts are just built on i386
  36 [07:09] <maco> gotunandan: have you seen harvest http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest ? its dholbach's "find low hanging fruit for motu-wannabes" site
  37 [07:10] <dholbach> maco: this one is not functional right now - I hope to get the new harvest site up soon though
  38 [07:10] <gotunandan> maco: I have heard of it, not seen it. Having a look
  39 [07:10] <jk-> dholbach: but not built for lucid?
  40 [07:10] <maco> dholbach: oh
  41 [07:10] <dholbach> Usually the https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/creoleparser/+publishinghistory page shows if it was removed or something
  42 [07:10] <maco> dholbach: what happened to the prettiness rockstar made last UDS? it never got uploaded?
  43 [07:10] <dholbach> jk-: it was built in karmic, then it never changed afterwards
  44 [07:11]  * maco tries to remember +publishinghistory
  45 [07:11] <jk-> i see
  46 [07:11] <dholbach> maco: it was improved, but it's not deployed yet
  47 [07:11] <dholbach> jk-: we don't rebuild all packages for a new release - it'd probably take weeks :)
  48 [07:12] <dholbach> we just "copy them over"
  49 [07:12] <dholbach> jk-: is there anything wrong with the package right now?
  50 [07:12] <jk-> ok
  51 [07:12]  * jk- wonders why it's not appearing in the repo then
  52 [07:12] <dholbach> ok, let's see about that
  53 [07:12] <jk-> possibly quite off-topic now though :)
  54 [07:12] <dholbach> no no, that's fine
  55 [07:13] <dholbach> first of all: you're right :)
  56 [07:13] <persia> It's a bit off-topic, but the binary was probably removed due to a FTBFS with current tools, as a result of a supportable-binaries spec in lucid.  This affected ~600 packages.
  57 [07:13] <dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~$ LC_ALL=C sudo apt-get install -s python-creoleparser
  58 [07:13] <dholbach> Reading package lists... Done
  59 [07:13] <dholbach> Building dependency tree
  60 [07:13] <dholbach> Reading state information... Done
  61 [07:13] <dholbach> elky: Couldn't find package python-creoleparser
  62 [07:13] <dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~$
  63 [07:13] <dholbach> oh, that's interesting, let me test-build it
  64 [07:13] <persia> dholbach: Fix your nick-completion :)
  65 [07:13]  * elky tilts her head wondering...
  66 [07:14] <dholbach> errrrrr, that was xchat-gnome-auto-completion
  67 [07:14] <dholbach> sorry about that - I didn't even press "tab" :)
  68 [07:14] <dholbach> I just copied/pasted
  69 [07:14] <elky> That's  not a very nice feature then
  70 [07:14] <dholbach> not, not really
  71 [07:14] <ToyKeeper> xchat -> settings -> preferences -> input box -> [ ] Automatic nick completion (without tab key)
  72 [07:15] <persia> It's more helpful than it ought be: file a bug :)
  73 [07:15] <dholbach> ok, so I just  apt-get source creoleparser; sudo pbuilder build creoleparser*.dsc
  74 [07:15]  * elky hugs regular xchat and goes back to what she was doing.
  75 [07:16] <gotunandan> maco: yes seen it now. Cannot really fathom where to go though ?
  76 [07:16] <dholbach> aha, the package fails to build: http://paste.ubuntu.com/428772/
  77 [07:16] <maco> gotunandan: dholbach just said that its currently in ick mode. the shiny new harvest isnt online yet apparently
  78 [07:16] <gotunandan> maco: the sourcepackages,html page is huge !
  79 [07:17] <maco> yeah.... i remember that
  80 [07:17] <dholbach> gotunandan: best to ignore that page for now, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO lists a bunch of pages that make more sense right now
  81 [07:17] <dholbach> jk-: I just had a look if the package changed in Debian and it did - http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/c/creoleparser/creoleparser_0.7.1-1/changelog looks a lot like it's going to build now
  82 [07:17] <jk-> dholbach: so, say I hack on it a bit and fix that;
  83 [07:17] <dholbach> "   * Use python.mk for install options."
  84 [07:17] <ToyKeeper> (if xchat-gnome doesn't have the UI, it's probably '/set completion_auto off')
  85 [07:18] <maco> gotunandan: also, if you can read a bit of code, know how to apply a patch & rebuild a package... the patch review team could use some help ;-)
  86 [07:18] <dholbach> I'll just get the source from Debian and see if that works
  87 [07:18] <dholbach> (got to the changelog page via packages.debian.org/src:<source package>)
  88 [07:18] <maco> gotunandan: the patch review team and motu both have the goal of getting the patch in & bug fixed. its just that the patch review team tries to get the patches to upstream or debian so then the motu can just update the package to the latest version upstream and it magically is fixed
  89 [07:19] <gotunandan> maco: yes, thats certainly possible. Whom do I get in touch with, nigelbabu ?
  90 [07:19] <jk-> dholbach: sid ?
  91 [07:19] <dholbach> jk-: if the package from debian builds just fine, we'll auto-import it in a few days (once maverick is truly open) since the package is unmodified in Ubuntu
  92 [07:19] <dholbach> jk-: http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=sourcenames&keywords=creoleparser
  93 [07:19] <maco> gotunandan: sure or join #ubuntu-reviews
  94 [07:19] <jk-> ok
  95 [07:19] <maco> gotunandan: we've got a patch day going right now
  96 [07:19] <persia> gotunandan: If you're looking for patch review, stop by #ubuntu-reviews : if you're looking at getting the patch straight into Ubuntu, #ubuntu-motu is the better place.
  97 [07:20] <jk-> but we sync from sid or squeeze?
  98 [07:20] <maco> persia: well once its reviewed it can still have a shot at an sru
  99 [07:20] <dholbach> jk-: ah, sorry - I misunderstood - I think for maverick we'll sync from sid again
 100 [07:20] <jk-> i guess it doesn't matter in this case :)
 101 [07:20] <dholbach> yep, but it fails the same way
 102 [07:21] <dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/428774/
 103 [07:21] <jk-> so I should hack on the debian package instead?
 104 [07:21] <dholbach> it'll get auto-imported, so it will make sense to work on that
 105 [07:22] <dholbach> what I'd probably try next is to see if a bug was already filed upstream about this
 106 [07:22] <dholbach> it's a bit weird that the package seems to build in debian, but not here
 107 [07:22] <dholbach> since we don't modify its code
 108 [07:23] <dholbach> jk-: if the fix is really just "add some __init__.py files", it'd probably make sense to fix it in lucid too if the package is truly helpful
 109 [07:24] <persia> Actually, arch:all packages often run into this issue, because of differences in the Debian and Ubuntu build systems.
 110 [07:24] <dholbach> gotunandan: to get back to your question: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO lists a lot of useful stuff - once maverick opens I guess a lot of people will focus on merging packages from Debian
 111 [07:24] <persia> Most of those are bugs that are happily fixed in Debian.
 112 [07:24] <dholbach> persia: but you wouldn't know what specifically is broken there? it's not a common ftbfs?
 113 [07:25] <persia> I don't happen to know, sorry.
 114 [07:25] <dholbach> ok, thanks
 115 [07:25] <dholbach> gotunandan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging should give you some tips how to do it
 116 [07:25] <dholbach> (and of course there's always #ubuntu-packaging and #ubuntu-motu)
 117 [07:25] <persia> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/no_updated.html is also worth mentioning in the context of merging: we don't get everything from Debian.
 118 [07:25] <gotunandan> dholbach: thanks !
 119 [07:25] <jk-> ok, say it's an ubuntu-specific fix then, and I create a dpatch, what next?
 120 [07:26] <dholbach> get it sponsored: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
 121 [07:26] <jk-> ok, cool
 122 [07:26] <dholbach> usually just file a bug report or use an existing one, add the patch, subscribe ubuntu-sponsors, get it uploaded
 123 [07:27] <maco> dpatch?
 124 [07:27] <dholbach> or you can use the distributed development approach
 125 [07:27] <dholbach> where you branch off of lp:ubuntu/creoleparser
 126 [07:27] <maco> is dpatch like debdiff? ive not heard this one before...
 127 [07:27] <jk-> so attach the dpatch itself, or a patch to add the dpatch + changelog + etc
 128 [07:27] <dholbach> maco: dpatch is one of the many patch systems
 129 [07:27] <jk-> ?
 130 [07:27] <persia> maco: dpatch is one of hte available patch systems: `apt-cache show dpatch`
 131 [07:27] <dholbach> jk-: the latter makes it more straight-forward to just upload it (if it's good)
 132 [07:28] <jk-> ok, great
 133 [07:28] <maco> jk-: for what dholbach just mentioned with distributed development: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation
 134 [07:28] <jk-> maco: thanks
 135 [07:28] <dholbach> where you branch off of lp:ubuntu/creoleparser , create a branch for that fix, and add a merge proposal
 136 [07:28] <maco> im starting to appreciate source version 3 uniting on quilt. at least i only have to know how one thing works
 137 [07:29] <dholbach> mvo wrote a tool call edit-patch (in ubuntu-dev-tools), it should help with all the different patch systems
 138 [07:29] <maco> dholbach: hey i have a motu sponsory question. is there a way to see all bugs that have branches attached?
 139 [07:29] <maco> or to see all open merge proposals for which you are able to approve it?
 140 [07:29] <dholbach> maco: I use http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/index.html
 141 [07:29] <dholbach> and sort by the first column
 142 [07:29] <dholbach> all "unseeded"
 143 [07:30] <maco> dholbach: i thought that was just listing bugs that have sponsors subscribed
 144 [07:30] <dholbach> erm
 145 [07:30] <dholbach> that's broken
 146 [07:30] <dholbach> maco: no, branches too
 147 [07:30] <dholbach> but the "unseeded" thing is broken right now
 148 [07:30] <dholbach> more TODO list
 149 [07:30] <dholbach> I'll get to it later today
 150 [07:30] <maco> it just looks like all but 2 are for unseeded packages
 151 [07:31] <jk-> does the merge proposal need a corresponding bug?
 152 [07:31] <dholbach> maco: yes, that's a bug
 153 [07:31] <maco> jk-: generally, yeah
 154 [07:31] <dholbach> no
 155 [07:31] <dholbach> if there's a bug, link to it, but you don't need to specifically file onw
 156 [07:31] <dholbach> one
 157 [07:31] <maco> i thought for bookkeeping it was good to have a bug and a LP: #foo in the changelog?
 158 [07:31] <jk-> ok
 159 [07:32] <maco> is this a bzr-lets-bookkeeping-happen-regardless thing?
 160 [07:32] <dholbach> if there's some actual discussion about the thing going on, it's good to link to it in the changelog
 161 [07:32] <dholbach> but if you just say something like "changed x, y and z in a, b, c: this makes the package build again" that's totally fine
 162 [07:32] <persia> If there is a bug, the bug in the changelog is good.  For a Debian merge or UEHS update, no point to a bug if it doesn't already exist and one is pushing a branch.
 163 [07:33] <dholbach> you'd write the same in the bug report anyway
 164 [07:34] <maco> persia: k so the tendency i had to only file a bug once i had a patch ready to hand to a sponsor... that would no longer require filing a bug?
 165 [07:34] <dholbach> not if you use distributed development
 166 [07:34] <persia> maco: You may either file a bug or push a branch and request a merge.  Both show up on the sponsoring report.
 167 [07:34] <dholbach> but still document as good as you can :)
 168 [07:34] <maco> neat
 169 [07:34] <dholbach> when you use bzr and distributed development, you can easily do a   bzr commit --fixes lp:123456   to link it
 170 [07:35] <maco> though rawr ive only been at this a year-ish and im already behind the times
 171 [07:35] <dholbach> (if this bug exists)
 172 [07:35]  * persia tends to put the bugs in the changelog, and then use debcommit to automate the --fixes bit
 173 [07:35] <dholbach> maco: I think everybody's figuring out how best to make use of UDD (ubuntu distributed development) right now
 174 [07:35]  * maco does like persia
 175 [07:35] <dholbach> persia: yes, that works as well :)
 176 [07:35] <jk-> dholbach, persia, maco: awesome, thanks for the info, i owe you guys a beer :)
 177 [07:35] <dholbach> (I've been working a lot on non-distro things in the last few weeks :-))
 178 [07:36] <dholbach> jk-: no worries
 179 [07:36] <persia> If it's not clear to anyone: there are almost no "right answers", as long as you find something that 1) works for you, and 2) complies with policy, and 3) happens to match others workflows.
 180 [07:36] <maco> persia: you know whats fun (not really)? this mess:  bzr-buildpackage -S -- -sa -v####
 181 [07:36] <dholbach> as you can see it was very useful to talk about these questions :)
 182 [07:36] <dholbach> maco: I'd move the "-S" behind the "--"
 183 [07:37] <dholbach> bzr bd -- -S -sa -v<version>
 184 [07:37] <persia> Why -sa?
 185 [07:37] <maco> persia: i was merging fromd debian
 186 [07:37]  * persia actively avoids using -sa *except* when cleaning up after other folks
 187 [07:37] <dholbach> persia: if you need to upload a new upstream tarball?
 188 [07:37] <maco> where there was a new upstream release
 189 [07:37] <persia> Still shouldn't need -sa
 190 [07:37] <maco> well buildpackage was Not Happy when i didnt use it
 191 [07:37] <maco> though that couldve been because i forgot -v too
 192 [07:37] <persia> dholbach: It will auto-include it if it thinks it's warranted.
 193 [07:38] <dholbach> persia: if you have 1.2-1ubuntu1 in Ubuntu and merge 2.4-5 from Debian?
 194 [07:38] <dholbach> oh nice
 195 [07:38] <maco> i was flailing about today trying to remember how to merge
 196 [07:38] <persia> RIght, that's clearly a new upstream, so you get a new tarball.
 197 [07:38] <dholbach> persia: and it includes the -sa magically?
 198 [07:38] <maco> persia: so my forgetting -v is why it wanted me to -sa?
 199 [07:38] <persia> It only fails when the versions aren't sufficiently different, or you need to push a new tarball to clean up after some mess.
 200 [07:38] <dholbach> maco: the two are unrelated
 201 [07:38] <maco> hrmph
 202 [07:38] <persia> maco: Yes, because you didn't scope it correctly.
 203 [07:38] <dholbach> gotcha
 204 [07:39] <dholbach> do you all have any more questions? anything that was unclear in the explanations right now?
 205 [07:39]  * maco looks back and forth from persia to dholbach
 206 [07:39] <persia> dholbach: If the upload version and the prior version have different upsteam versions, yep.
 207 [07:39]  * maco wishes you'd agree a bit
 208 [07:39] <dholbach> maybe somebody of the shy people (not jk- and gotunandan :-)) who are just lurking here?
 209 [07:39] <dholbach> persia: great
 210 [07:39] <dholbach> maco: I filed bug 576242
 211 [07:39] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 576242 in ubuntu-sponsoring "Everything is "unseeded"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/576242
 212 [07:39] <persia> maco: It is the dynamic cooperative disagreement that is central to the process of arriving towards a flexible set of working practices :)
 213 [07:40] <maco> dholbach: it *is* possible that one of those very rare times when the main sponsors are more efficient than the universe sponsors happened
 214 [07:40] <maco> (yes i know old names)
 215 [07:40] <dholbach> maco: no, I think it's more a problem with the packagesets in maverick
 216 [07:40] <persia> It's a bug.
 217 [07:41] <dholbach> any more questions? anything else you wondered about? anything else that seems broken? :)
 218 [07:42] <maco> how many uploads do you have to sponsor before you get a pony?
 219 [07:42] <maco> </jorge>
 220 [07:43] <dholbach> I don't know, but you get a lot of people liking you for reviewing their stuff :)
 221 [07:46] <dholbach> any more questions?
 222 [07:46] <ajmitch> how do we be a rock star? :)
 223 [07:47] <dholbach> ajmitch: you of all should know!
 224 [07:47] <arand_> (Don't have a system in fron of me, so general question): I find that I struggle quite a bit when i try to update a package with new [insert scm] versions. If I don't have an orig.tar.gz, is there any general guidelines on how to get to the point where ther is one, whilst still reusing the old diff.gz (possible?)
 225 [07:47] <maco> scm?
 226 [07:47] <ajmitch> source control
 227 [07:47] <arand_> git/svn/whathaveyou
 228 [07:48] <maco> pristine-tar?
 229 [07:48] <ajmitch> generally there'll be ways of exporting it, such as 'svn export', or possibly 'make dist' for an automake project
 230 [07:49] <ajmitch> whatevr way suits the project best, you'll want to have a get-orig-source target in debian/rules so that it can be automated by others
 231 [07:49] <dholbach> ./configure <---> && make dist    (if available) should give you a tarball
 232 [07:49] <dholbach> and something like   svn export   should make sure you don't have revision control meta data in your tarball
 233 [07:50] <dholbach> I hope that one fine day in the future we stop caring about tarballs and just use branches for everything :)
 234 [07:50] <maco> what does "bzr-buildpackage --split" do?
 235 [07:50] <dholbach> until then, the above will make sense :)
 236 [07:50] <maco> it says Automatically create an .orig.tar.gz from a full source branch.
 237 [07:50] <maco> dholbach:  does that do what arand_ is asking for?
 238 [07:50] <ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
 239 [07:50] <arand_> The autogen.sh I've seen around (with no configure), should one just run that and then "make dist" In those cases?
 240 [07:51] <persia> arand_: All those alternatives aside, you should encourage any upsteam to produce some release archive (.tgz, .tar.bz2, .zip, whatever) when they do a release.
 241 [07:51] <dholbach> arand_: that sounds like a good bet
 242 [07:51] <maco> arand_: autogen.sh, in my experience, generates the configure
 243 [07:51] <dholbach> maco: yes, that should work if they use bzr (or one has set up a launchpad import of some other revision control branch)
 244 [07:52] <arand_> Does the autogen not also run the configure normally?
 245 [07:52] <maco> dholbach: idea for next UOW:  UDD
 246 [07:52] <ajmitch> yes please
 247 [07:52] <dholbach> arand_: I've seen it do so, but I wouldn't rely on it
 248 [07:52] <dholbach> arand_: best read what it does - they're usually quite small
 249 [07:52] <dholbach> maco: james_w has been running them for every UDW and a few UOWs too
 250 === gotunandan_ is now known as gotunandan
 251 [07:53] <dholbach> ajmitch: there should be heaps of logs :)
 252 [07:53] <arand_> Anyway, it appears as though "make dist" was the link I was missing in general
 253 [07:53] <arand_> Thanks
 254 [07:53] <dholbach> glad that works :)
 255 [07:53] <maco> dholbach: oh in that case i need to pay more attention :P
 256 [07:53] <dholbach> maco: but yeah, I guess we need to raise the profile of UDD
 257 [07:53] <dholbach> I just learned about   bzr lp-open   a few weeks back
 258 [07:53] <ajmitch> dholbach: yeah, it'll be a matter of finding & reading, like much of the documentation around
 259 [07:54] <ajmitch> a few weeks? I learnt about it today
 260 [07:54] <dholbach> ajmitch: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Previous
 261 [07:54] <ajmitch> thanks
 262 [07:54] <dholbach> de rien
 263 [07:54] <maco> if the goal is for that to be the way things are done moving forward, seems it ought to be whats given to new contribs off the bat
 264 [07:55] <imbrandon> bzr lp-open ?
 265 [07:55] <dholbach> imbrandon: will open the launchpad page of the branch in a browser :)
 266 [07:55] <persia> There's a sufficiency of folks that prefer the non-bzr method that we'll probably end up supporting both for a very long time.
 267 [07:55] <dholbach> so if you want to submit a merge proposal, that makes it easy
 268 [07:55] <persia> (especially for the die-hard git folk)
 269 [07:55] <ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
 270 [07:56] <dholbach> ok, any more questions?
 271 [07:58] <dholbach> ok... in that case best ask your questions in #ubuntu-packaging or #ubuntu-motu later on!
 272 [07:58] <dholbach> have a great day everybody and thanks for all your questions and answers
 273 [07:58] <dholbach> you guys rock!
 274 [07:58] <ajmitch> thank you dholbach
 275 [07:58] <arand_> Thanks for the session!


Packaging/Training/Logs/2010-05-06 (last edited 2010-05-28 11:33:36 by i59F77AA7)