Brief introduction to the team, meeting, and theme if possible.
Team Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InsertTeamPage
Meeting Log(s): http://tonio.homelinux.org/irclogs/kubuntu-meeting-minute-12-07-2006.txt
Meeting Chair: Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)
Meeting Minutes by: Anthony Mercatante (Tonio)
The following were present during this meeting:
One membership requests scheduled for this meeting. Martin Böhm (mhb) has requested an introduction to the Kubuntu team. The following is a brief introduction:
Name: Martin Böhm (mhb)
The following is an abridged version of the introduction. Please refer to the logs for this introduction in its entirety.
<Riddell> we have a membership <toma> mhb: can you give a short intro? <mhb> My name is Martin Böhm and I'm a student from the Czech Republic. I'm a member of the Ubuntu Czech translation team since Dapper and I was recently appointed as the coordinator of this team. I've also made a website about Kubuntu in Czech. At the end of the Edgy development phase I've created a Kubuntu Testers team which will hopefully help with the testing of Feisty Fawn. I also have a small piece of software I'll try to develop for Feisty - the GRUB configuration tool. If all goes well and I have a little time left I'll may also help with some less important Rosetta features a bit. <raphink> what is the GRUB configuration tool exactly? <mhb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuGrubconfig <raphink> mhb: has kubuntu testers already been active so far? <mhb> raphink: sadly not much <mhb> raphink: it was created at the end of the edgy development cycle <Riddell> it's all there <Riddell> welcome in mhb
The following agendas were proposed for this meeting:
Luka Renko (LukaRenko)
Should we upload new kubuntu-default-settings to remove /.hidden for edgy-proposed/-updates to match fix already in feisty -- LukaRenko 2006-12-05 19:38:23
Tom Albers (TomAlbers)
Should we include a tool for setting up synaptics-like mice (touchpads etc.) in Kubuntu Feisty? If so, what should be modified in Ksynaptics to make it Kubuntu-friendly? -- MartinBöhm 2006-12-07 13:02:44
Anthony Mercatante (AnthonyMercatante)
Should we consider kickoff as default start menu since opensuse has just been released with it and we have long time available to test it widelly -- AnthonyMercatante 2006-12-07 18:03:42
Are there packages for either Edgy or Feisty we could test with? I think the new start menu from what little I've seen rocks JonathanJesse
KHelpCenter - is it possible to add a new front page to it? For instance http://nixternal.ubuntu-rocks.org/stuff/doc/ktbh - this will allow us to implement the TopicBasedHelp that is currently being worked on with documentation? -- nixternal 2006-12-07 20:15:31
NOTE: I displayed that proposed front page for KHelpCenter which is just an idea and needs tweaking to the KDE Doc guys (Phil Rodriguez) and one of the KHelpCenter devs (Frerich Raabe) and they both liked it. Frerich also proposed a possible application done by us to run a Topic Based Help viewer and then just link to KHelpCenter -- nixternal 2006-12-07 20:15:31
Meeting called to order at 21:07 UTC, by Meeting Chair, Jonathan Riddell
The following is a break down of the entire meeting by agenda items.
Backporting the feisty version of kubuntu-default-settings, in which /.hidden has been removed
Presented by: Luka Renko (LukaRenko)
Should we upload new kubuntu-default-settings to remove /.hidden for edgy-proposed/-updates to match fix already in feisty -- LukaRenko 2006-12-05 19:38:23
Luka Renko states the the current situation between the edgy and feisty versions of kubuntu-default-settings. It was discussed during latest UDS that we should remove this and that's already done in feisty. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC:
<Lure> Should we upload new kubunut-default-settings to remove /.hidden for edgy-proposed/-updates to match fix already in feisty <raphink> hi allee <toma> allee: we just started: [23:05:27] <Lure> Should we upload new kubunut-default-settings to remove /.hidden for edgy-proposed/-updates to match fix already in feisty <Riddell> Lure: I doubt this falls into any of the categories of StableReleaseUpdates <allee> hi all <allee> thx for info <Lure> lots of complaints on kubuntu-users and irc regarding this, so I think it is good canddiates for stable release update <Riddell> and SRUs seem not to be being processed just now <Tonio_> Lure: in the meantime, people "know" that edgy is experimental <Lure> Riddell: it impacts lots of users with what they consider usability constraint, fix is simple and non-risky <toma> Lure: that means all folders on the / are visible again? <Lure> toma: yes - already done for feisty <Tonio_> toma: that's the idea yes <Riddell> but if you want to try and get it through the process then please do <toma> Lure: doesn't that undermine the thought of the whole excersise? <Riddell> toma: we keep .hidden in /media, but users don't actually get pointed to / <Lure> toma: yes, this was discussed on UDS-MTV and seele convinced us... <toma> Riddell: ok, i can understand that <Lure> Riddell: so no objection to try to push it? Then I will prepare bug with reasoning and patch <Riddell> Lure: yes, I'll support you if you want to try and push that through <allee> Lure: okay from my side <raphink> what is the bug with .hidden exactly? <Lure> raphink: you only see /home and /media on / <allee> Lure: and /afs ;) <Riddell> raphink: if you want to open a file in /usr or the like it's hard to find it <raphink> ok <toma> (i love it btw) <raphink> ic <Lure> raphink: we thought that this is good idea for edgy, but people complain and usability guys do not like it either <raphink> right
Outcome: Lure will try to get an SRU in for that package.
Who knows more about [[[http://tsdgeos.blogspot.com/2006/11/distributor-patches.html|this situation]]] in kpdf and should we continue it this way
Presented by: Tom Albers (toma)
Kubuntu forks kpdf in order not to maintain several xpdf copies, which causes security issues and maintainance problems. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC:
<Riddell> toma: your item next <toma> okay, well i saw the blog about using poppler in kpdf <toma> and i wondered if that is still a good thing or not <jenda> Hello folks <Riddell> hi jenda --> RadiantFire entre sur le canal (n=ryan@unaffiliated/radiantfire). <Tonio_> hello jenda <Riddell> toma: you'll have a hard time convincing the security team to revert that <Riddell> maintaining multiple copies of xpdf is just something we don't have time for <Riddell> and other distros use our poppler patch too <allee> Riddell: who maintains this fork? <toma> that was what i wanted to ask --> mc44 entre sur le canal (email@example.com). <Riddell> well, Gentoo does at least <toma> Riddell: did you look at the printing problem? <Riddell> allee: pitti wrote it, I keep it up to date with new releases <Riddell> toma: no, I havn't <allee> ah, okay <Riddell> although I've never had a problem printing PDFs myself <Riddell> but it's not something I do much <Tonio_> toma: I tested quickly today and haven't been able to reproduce.... preview print works here <toma> thanks all. Okay, lets move on <Tonio_> Riddell: I think the issue reported concerns the preview, not the printing itself <toma> easy to test <Riddell> I should look at it, but it sounds complex <Riddell> for feisty+1 we'll hopefully be using okular and the problem will go away <toma> true
Outcome: Not much can be done, Tonio will look into bugs.
Should we include a tool for setting up synaptics-like mice (touchpads etc.) in Kubuntu Feisty?
Presented by: Martin Böhm (mhb)
MartinBöhm notes that kubuntu doesn't currently ship with a touchpad configuration tool, while ksynaptics exists. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC:
<mhb> Should we include a tool for setting up synaptics-like mice (touchpads etc.) in Kubuntu Feisty? If so, what should be modified in Ksynaptics to make it Kubuntu-friendly? <Riddell> I have no touchpad, so I don't care :) <nixternal> haha <toma> hehe <mhb> Some of it is answered by the KubuntuFeistyLaptop spec, but Tonio wanted to discuss it anyway <Tonio_> I think we should remove autolaunch, and replace it by a script <Tonio_> to start it only if a launchpad is detected <Tonio_> I have to find a way to detect a touchpad is there <Riddell> but if it's hidden under Keyboard & Mouse in system settings I don't mind <Tonio_> should be easy by checking the synaptic module <Tonio_> Riddell: you would only put it in systemsettings ? I'm fine with this too <Lure> Tonio_: that was plan (under Keyboard & Mouse) <Tonio_> I'll do that, and the main inclusion and everything required, no pb <Riddell> I don't want it sitting in the systray <Lure> Tonio_: I am just not sure if we can fix auto-start <allee> AFAIR there also a security subject involved. Access to some shmem or whatever to apply changes during runtime <Tonio_> Riddell: bah it will if you start it via systemsettings <Riddell> oh, that's evil <Lure> allee: this might complicate main inclusion... <allee> What is ubuntu doing? <Tonio_> allee: hum, indeed........ <Tonio_> allee: I need to investigate this, since that'll make the main inclusion impossible <mhb> allee: I'm not sure that they have something to manage that <Riddell> allee: nothing as far as I know, everything should all work out the box <Lure> Riddell: tray icon is ok if we do not auto-start (it is user's choice) <fabo> mhb: they don't use gsynaptics ? <Riddell> Lure: if they start it manually sure, but if it starts when you load it in system settings that's evil too <mhb> fabo: not present on my edgy machine w/ ubuntu-desktop so I guess not in Edgy at least <Tonio_> Riddell: well some touchpads are not detected correctly, I had the issue on my previous HP laptop * Riddell not a fan of excessive systray usage <mhb> mine is not detected correctly, for instance <Tonio_> Riddell: well I think we can hide the icon, so if that is possible I will force the default via kds <Riddell> Tonio_: yep, that's why it's ok if it's available, but not getting in the way <Tonio_> Riddell: yes, I see your point <mhb> I think ksynaptics would also need some UI polishing <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll investigate the security part and do the implementation <Tonio_> mhb: definitly, yes, but it is the only available tool afaik <fabo> Tonio_: atm, xorg need manual editiong no ? <allee> bit when ksynaptics is only needed in rare circumstances, why put it in main? <fabo> xorg conf. <Tonio_> fabo: nope, the synaptic driver has external config files in ~ <allee> fabo: or pull ksyn. from universe <Riddell> allee: if people need it, we should let them have it <mhb> allee: well you can fine-tune the touchpad with it <Tonio_> allee: why ? because I had HARD time to find that --> kdw_ entre sur le canal (firstname.lastname@example.org). <Tonio_> my first thing when it happened was to check in systemsettings, which makes sense <Lure> allee: point is to find it in System settings if they have problems <mhb> Tonio_: same by me <Tonio_> allee: and it is very little package, mostly hidden deeply in systemsettings, that will not bother joe user <allee> FWIW: the only real reason we needed something like this was that touchpad and track(?) stick had totally different accerealtions. and ksynaptics did not help here <Riddell> speaking of which, we need someone to own the system settings changes in feisty <Tonio_> Lure: Riddell talking about you :) ^^ <Lure> Tonio_: where? ;-) <Tonio_> seriously, I am not capable of doing this... <allee> Tonio_: I've fine with inclusion if pitti is fine with it ;) But don't forget in 80% here kubuntu runs on desktop not laptop, so if it get's in main it should only run when necessary <Riddell> allee: absolutely <Tonio_> allee: absolutly agree <mhb> allee: yes, Tonio_ mentioned it <Tonio_> that's why it'll feet silently in systemsettings <Riddell> let's move on <Riddell> thanks for taking that up Tonio_
Outcome: Tonio will look into it, but due to security issues (implementation needs touching xorg.conf), that will not be possible if we want clean implementation.
Should we consider kickoff as default start menu since opensuse has just been released with it and we have long time available to test it widelly
Presented by: Anthony Mercatante (AnthonyMercatante)
Anthony Mercatante highlights new Opensuse has just been released introducing a replacement K menu, named Kickoff. What can/should we do to provide it with feisty and do we want it ? The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC:
<Tonio_> I spent the day on opensuse, and I must say I am in love with that kickoff thing <Tonio_> I would like to give it a try for feisty <Riddell> (I thought you were engaged to another...) <toma> Tonio_: screenie? <Tonio_> Riddell: lmao ^ ;) <Tonio_> toma: yes just a second <Lure> Tonio_: I also have opensuse 10.2, but my experience is not that positive with kickoff - but I am fine if it is not default <toma> http://en.opensuse.org/Kickoff <Riddell> Tonio_: can it be separated from beagle? <Tonio_> Riddell: I think yes <Lure> Tonio_: can it be optional? <Riddell> I'd like seele's feedback on it, she's been looking into k-menu stuff <toma> i think a menu with a search bar is bad design <Tonio_> Lure: on opensuse it is, so I assume yes <Lure> Tonio_: I hate scroll-bars on it... <toma> but maybe it is my twisted mind <-- pirast a quitté ce serveur (Remote closed the connection). <Tonio_> Lure: scrollbars ? <nixternal> Kickoff is cool, however can we replace "My Computer" with something else. That is a little to much Microsoft sounding :) * Tonio_ doesn't remember scrollbars <Lure> Tonio_: but it is snappy and good looking, just usability is not polished yet (imho) <Lure> Tonio_: it is fixed size, so if you have more items you get scroll-bars <Tonio_> well I jsut said "give a try" ;) <toma> can we make a package so we can test it ? <Tonio_> then once we have it in kubuntu we can decide what to do <toma> or is that a lot of work? <fabo> Tonio_: have you already checked the code ? --> finalbeta entre sur le canal (n=finalbet@d5152A68A.access.telenet.be). <Tonio_> fabo: I think it is a HUDGE patch to kdebase in fact :) <Lure> toma: afair, imbrandon said it is all over kdebase/libs patch <Tonio_> the point is I can do the package, but I would like to be sure everyone agrees on the idea cause it is a lot of work <fabo> Tonio_: exactly like last time i looked inside ;) <toma> Lure: hm ok <Tonio_> that's the point <Lure> toma: +linked to kerry (beagle) <Lure> :-( <Tonio_> Lure: but the patches should be quite easy to maintain in fact <nixternal> it would be nice to get the Help system to search our doucmentation and what not in there as well. Link the ? to some topic based help love <Tonio_> just diff the suse branch with official kde one <Riddell> erk, it's a branch of kdebase http://websvn.kde.org/branches/work/suse_kickoff/ <Lure> Tonio_: maybe you should prepare packages in your repo and we can try <mhb> maybe we should wait on seele's input before starting <Tonio_> Lure: yes, that's my point <Tonio_> in fact suse will maintain the branch so it is quite easy for us to maintain the patches <Tonio_> mhb: kickoff has been designed with kde usability people :) <Lure> mhb: point - I do not like how some things are done... <toma> http://home.kde.org/~binner/kickoff/sneak_preview.html <Lure> Tonio_: I think with suse usability actually ;-) <Tonio_> Lure: I'm not sure seele has been involved, but some kde people have <allee> I would really like to give kickoff a try. <toma> i dont like the behaviour of all programs <fabo> allee: me too. it could be nice if coolo provide a nice source archive with just kickoff ... <Tonio_> well I'll do package on my repo so that we can test <Tonio_> then once we can really test it we can rediscuss this <Lure> Tonio_: that would be great! <mhb> I'm not sure if the amount of work is worth it. After all, KDE4 will probably have a new kicker too, won't it? * Lure hates to reboot in suse to try it out ;-) <fabo> mhb: raptor <Tonio_> mhb: I wonder if kickoff will or not bethe kde4 default, or at least used as a base <Tonio_> Riddell: wasn't that discussed at akademy ? <Riddell> kde 4 will (should) have plasma, no kicker at all <Tonio_> Riddell: okay <Riddell> so we'd all love to see packages of kickoff, but if it's a branch of kdebase I'm not sure how possible that is <toma> im still curious how that will work out <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll look at how suse implemented it <toma> (no kicker) <Tonio_> toma: no kicker doesn't mean no start menu :) <allee> Tonio_: Maybe we should try a SuSE lifecd first and talk about it in 2 weeks again? <Tonio_> the "kicker" can be a desktop widget, or something <Tonio_> allee: please do :) --> fdoving entre sur le canal (n=frode@ubuntu/member/frode). <toma> yes thats fine by me too <Lure> allee: Tonio_ typically packages stuff faster they we can download live cd ;-) <Tonio_> Lure: lol, probably not that time btw ;) <Riddell> so another one for Tonio_'s TODO list <Tonio_> Riddell: well, everyone will give a try and I'll prepare testing packages, we can go next item
Outcome: Tonio will look at it, but very difficult to package as its a branch of kdebase.
K``Help``Center - is it possible to add a new front page to it? For instance http://nixternal.ubuntu-rocks.org/stuff/doc/ktbh - this will allow us to implement the TopicBasedHelp that is currently being worked on with documentation.
Presented by: Richard Johnson (nixternal)
Richard Johnson asks if we should try to implement new default page and structure for KHelpCenter. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC:
<nixternal> The Ubuntu Documentation Team is currently working ona Topic Based Help System <nixternal> this is good, as it allows people to actually find help within our guides by topic <fdoving> hi toma, sorry i'm late. <nixternal> the tricky part is this. either use KHelpCenter with a custom front page, or possibly create an application that will read documentation into a custome Help Center specificaly for Kubuntu <Lure> nixternal: I have to say that it really looks nice, so I am all for it - not sure how easy the intergation would be <nixternal> as it stands, KHelpCenter isn't getting much love upstream. They want to change it in KDE4 but I don't know if anyone is working on it yet <nixternal> Lure: ya, the integration is what I am wondering about <Tonio_> nixternal: shame on you ! the code bugs on konqueror ! <nixternal> the KHelpCenter guys said take the HTML and convert it into a C++ application. that is where I leave that up to devs :) <raphink> nixternal: or as I suggested, use the custom pages in Konqueror <nixternal> Tonio_: ya, i will fix that <Tonio_> nixternal: thanks ;) <raphink> by providing index.html pages for each section of the doc <nixternal> but yes, raphink has an idea about using Konqueror to display help and link it with the help:/ <Lure> nixternal: it would be great in KHelpCenter as it is already linked all around (k-menu, keyboard...) <raphink> I have begun to look at it <raphink> for example, if I create a /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/fr/kubuntu/index.html file <Tonio_> I must say I love the idea <raphink> it shows up in help:/kubuntu <raphink> so people can browse the help:/ <nixternal> as it stands, a new user can't find help in our documentation very easily, and we need to fix this <raphink> we could then compile the index.html files with po files for languages <raphink> to provide the users whole customized indexes of the doc <nixternal> that is why mpt suggested the topic based help, and the doc team is currently working on some layouts for it <raphink> and link the konqueror start page to help:/ <Lure> raphink: right, help:/kubuntu/desktopguide/index.html already works <Riddell> nixternal: where would the links on the left go to e.g. Multimedia? <raphink> yes Lure, but help:/ and help:/kubuntu are empty <raphink> Lure: so we can use them <nixternal> raphink: the pages will still be built in docbook and then converted to html, so the po files will be generated by us <raphink> yes <nixternal> Riddell: they would go to a page that would list common questions users have for that specific topic <Lure> raphink: but should we then change k-menu Help to point to konqueror help:/ ? (same for keyboard shortcut in kmilo)? <toma> why the docbook construction? why not link straight to the doc site? <nixternal> that is an idea <raphink> there could be a help:/faq for that maybe nixternal <nixternal> toma: that is the standard the doc team uses, and until they change that <nixternal> toma: oh, we don't want to link for all questions because not everyone has internet access <allee> toma: there are still people without permanent internet access, so 'basic docs need to be on disk <raphink> I'm wondering how KHelpCenter gets the list of help pages <toma> hmm, a short ping to test it? <raphink> is it dynamic or generated when the doc is built? <nixternal> index.html.in file..i looked at KHelpCenter and all I can say is I was lost <Riddell> raphink: .desktop files <raphink> right <raphink> I guess the way the launch.html page is done <Riddell> and the apps list is just the k-menu <raphink> half compiled with .cc and half using .desktop files <toma> nixternal: all i know from the helpcenter is that it is a nightmare... <raphink> or something of the kind <Riddell> nixternal: apart from the nice descriptions on the menus at the side this could all be done in khelpcentre <raphink> toma: it's also very slow, compared to using help:/ in konqueror imo <nixternal> toma: i agree 100%, that is why the KDE guys are looking to replace it in KDE4 <Riddell> (although whether you want to is another thing) <nixternal> Riddell: if it can be done, then great <nixternal> of course we will probably change it anyways in feisty+1 because hopefully kde 4 will have a new topic based help system <toma> nixternal: okay, so why not use a html and only use it in konqi and skip the docbook construction for helpcenter <toma> isnt that easier to maintain? <nixternal> oh toma the page itself that you see in khelpcenter will be done in html, but the links will goto documentation that is built with docbook <nixternal> sorry <raphink> toma: the html will have to be generated anyway, at least for translations <allee> toma: is for html the same i18n infrastructure available as for docbook? <raphink> toma: and we already have generators from docbook <toma> raphink: okay <raphink> nixternal: can you confirm? <toma> allee: no, only for docbook <Riddell> nixternal: how does this fit into the plan for the Kubuntu Desktop Guide? <nixternal> well, Rosetta does html translations as well, see the index.html pages they use in Ubuntu firefox start page <nixternal> yes raphink i confirm <nixternal> Riddell: the guide will become topic based, so it will provide more answers to common questions <nixternal> as well as updated information on the applications like it currently contains <nixternal> so, the KDG will become modular in a way, where you can read only the section on Email, or Desktop Customizing, or Multimedia <Lure> nixternal: multimedia will/did change a lot in feisty <Lure> nixternal: DG talks about KsCD.... <Riddell> nixternal: so the links on the left in your mockup go to chapters in the KDG? <nixternal> Lure: so that whole section will be re-written, and plus people will know how to play MP3s and what not as well from it <Tonio_> Lure: good point.... <nixternal> Riddell: yes <nixternal> Lure: we will be changing the applications in the DG. it is time for change :) <Lure> nixternal: ok <nixternal> Riddell: then each of those chapters will break down into subtopics <nixternal> those subtopics will list information as well as answers to the common questions users have with Kubuntu <nixternal> also, KHelpCenter doesn't search worth a darn <nixternal> as it stands, it only searches man pages <Riddell> nixternal: all sounds great, it just needs a front page along the lines of your mockup and careful which docbook <sectX> level you use to make sure things end up on the same or separate pages as desired <Riddell> and it can be in khelpcentre, but maybe about:konq should just point to the HTML direct <nixternal> Riddell: that is the plan, each topic will be seperate to avoid confusion <Riddell> rocking, go for it <nixternal> woohoo!!! <Riddell> is robotgeek active in docs still? <nixternal> i will be working with upstream for kde4 and topic based help as well...so maybe i can learn some more <Riddell> who are you in contact with in KDE? <nixternal> robotgeek is very much active..he is on a 10 day sabbatical i believe right now <toma> nixternal: do you have the contacts already? <nixternal> Philip Rodriguez and Frerich Raabe <toma> okay <toma> thats about the complete team ;-( <nixternal> oh, plus I might be contributing soon to the Dot :) <allee> nixternal: FWIW don't forget that sometimes it's better to get a print out of the hole handbook , so don't split too much <nixternal> allee: we will still generate the system docs in PDF form <allee> nixternal: all in one? Cool <nixternal> PDFs will be at help.ubuntu.com <nixternal> but yes, PDFs and HTML are currently derived from one docbook file <allee> nixternal: for all kde apps, i.e. from universe too <Riddell> and if we get artists for Feisty we can poke them into making a nice help theme <nixternal> the html will get broken up, but the PDF will stay one solid piece <allee> nixternal: excellent <nixternal> allee: I am sure we can through some universe love in as well
Outcome: Go nixternal and kubuntu-docs team!
Meeting adjourned at 23:30 UTC, by Meeting Chair, Jonathan Riddell